[NEohioPAL]The "GAY thing", TWO opinions in one,homos heteros

Fri Oct 7 11:13:13 PDT 2005

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Ok Folks, 

I've sat out of the public debate on this one thusfar, but I need to respond and present an opposite opinion to several of the posts I've just recently read.

1st - Sam Jones presented us with a "two-sided" opinion that stated that we should be understanding of those who denounce homosexuality because they consider it their "duty" as christians or as heterosexuals to do so. That's like saying I'm all for the respectable opinions of the KKK, or better yet, "Hitler wasn't all that bad, he was just doing what he felt was his duty". I mean, REALLY. I need to point out that "denouncing" homosexuality is NOT a tenet of all religous beliefs - rather, a teaching seized upon by some fundamentalists in SOME denominations. In fact, some denominations OPENLY CONDEMN the persecution of homosexuals (INCLUDING the ROMAN CATHOLIC CATHECHISM, which does call homosexuality a sin but commands love and respect in dealing with it). In my own humble opinion, ANY religion that asks us to "condemn" ANYONE based on their PEACEFUL practices that DO NOT INFRINGE on the rights of anyone else is a few steps removed from Godly. "I'm a Christian" is NOT a valid excuse for homophobia, and being "understanding" of this type of attitude is exactly what perpetuates it.
Guess what, folks - I'M a "CHRITSIAN", too. GOD made me the way I am, and GOD loves me for it. Love is the basic tenet of Christianity, and that love is NON-SELECTIVE. So, I conclude that NO RELIGION BASED IN CHRISTIAN LOVE CAN DEMAND IT's FOLLOWERS TO DENOUNCE ANYONE.

 And Sam - as a side-note - in your post did you REALLY put homosexuality in the same sentence as DEVIL-WORSHIPPERS and MURDERERS ? I think you did. NOT the best way to frame a supposedly "two-sided" opinion statement. Please think about that.

2nd - Heather at HMP at hmpevents.com writes : Why do homosexuals feel such a great need to make a big deal about their sexuality.
Just be who you are and quit caring what other people think. 
Quit bragging about your sexual preference and go have some sex.  Maybe
you'll feel better.

WOW, HEATHER. I won't attack your statement, I'll simply answer your question. The answer is really simple: because we CAN'T "just be who we are" without constant persecution, ridicule, criticism, and flat-out discrimination. Happily, things have improved ALOT even in the ten years since I was in high-school and first started my own coming-out process - but let's not kid ourselves into thinking anti-gay discrimination and VIOLENCE is a thing of the past. Heather, YOU can walk down the street and hold your boyfriend's hand without worrying about whether or not you're in a "safe" neighborhood - I CAN'T. YOU aren't the victim of PUBLIC LEGISLATION telling me what I can and can't do in my PRIVATE life. YOU aren't LEGALLY REGARDED as a SECOND-CLASS CITIZEN with RESTRICTED CIVIL RIGHTS that SHOULD be a GIVEN in a truly just society. And finally, let's address the rather juvenile ending of your statement "quit bragging and go have some sex". Really? Wow. There's a little more to being gay than just the basic biology of it, dear. Statements like yours are PRECISELY the reason why I won't just "Be who I am without worrying about it". Until the public has the ACCURATE perception of "who i am" and indeed, who WE are, our visibility is the only thing allowing us to make strides towards equality. Please rethink your statement. 

 Thanks for reading my rant. I'll retire back to my cave and keep my opinion out of this for the remainder of the discussion (unless I get really irritated again). Thank you, Fred, for allowing this discussion to continue, for realizing that this community is about more than just audition notices, and for being the advocate that you are.

Regards,

Ryan Bergeron

-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Jones IV <forwardphasers at yahoo.com>
To: neohiopal at lists.fredsternfeld.com
Sent: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 06:23:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NEohioPAL]The "GAY thing", TWO opinions in one

I would like to offer a relatively two-sided opinion on the posting of the gays' outing since most people seem to be far to one side or the other when it comes to the whole gay issue.  I am straight and I consider that to be "normal".  I was raised in a religious home so I know that many religions consider it wrong to be gay according to their interpretation of the Bible, etc.  I also think it is odd that the gays and their supporters don't recognize that many straight people denounce homosexuality because they consider it their duty to oppose it.  And they are right!  Many churches expect the followers to oppose devil worshipers, muderers, and homosexuality.  I am not speaking to the issue of whether that is right or wrong.  I am simply pointing out the mindset that is so common but also overlooked.  If we are to accept and tolerate gays, then they should accept and tolerate religious folks who, by definition, are anti-gay.&n bsp; Now for the other side.  Since I am an adult, I realize there are more religions and other moral and behavioral standards other than the ones given to me as a child.  I not only accept and tolerate gays, other races, kids, the elderly, racists, drug addicts, and occult supporters, but I have friends in each of these categories.  I may never do what they do, but if I am truly an open-minded friend to them, I must accept what they do in order to be worthy of their acceptance of what I do.  The point is (like so many have already pointed out) that in this country, you can be or say whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone, force others to do it, or break any laws.  That is what these people are doing.  And so I applaud them for their tasteful expression of what used to be an upsetting topic of conversation for so many.  My son knows about gays and thinks it's "wierd" (he's 10 y.o.) but he also knows his father wi ll not tolerate unkind or condescending remarks about them.  He is to respect all people especially the one he does not fully understand.  I hope all the peope who frequent this list can be more like my son.   I have always appreciated the variety of postings on this list and I hope ALL of them will continue.  Actors and performers being censor-happy?  I don't get it.

Sam Jones

Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort. 

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<HTML><BODY><DIV style='font-family: "Verdana"; font-size: 10pt;'><DIV>Ok Folks, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I've sat out of the public debate on this one thusfar, but I need to respond and present an opposite opinion to several of the posts I've just recently read.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1st - Sam Jones presented us with a "two-sided" opinion that stated that we should be understanding of those who denounce homosexuality because they consider it their "duty" as christians or as heterosexuals to do so. That's like saying I'm all for the respectable opinions of the KKK, or better yet, "Hitler wasn't all that bad, he was just doing what he felt was his duty". I mean, REALLY. I need to point out that "denouncing" homosexuality is NOT a tenet of all religous beliefs - rather, a teaching seized upon by some fundamentalists in SOME denominations. In fact, some denominations OPENLY CONDEMN the persecution of homosexuals (INCLUDING the ROMAN CATHOLIC CATHECHISM, which does call homosexuality a sin but commands love and respect in dealing with it). In my own humble opinion, ANY religion that asks us to "condemn" ANYONE based on their PEACEFUL practices that DO NOT INFRINGE on the rights of anyone else is a few steps removed from Godly. "I'm a Christian" is NOT a valid excuse for homophobia, and being "understanding" of this type of attitude is exactly what perpetuates it.</DIV>
<DIV>Guess what, folks - I'M a "CHRITSIAN", too. GOD made me the way I am, and GOD loves me for it. Love is the basic tenet of Christianity, and that love is NON-SELECTIVE. So, I conclude that NO RELIGION BASED IN CHRISTIAN LOVE CAN DEMAND IT's FOLLOWERS TO DENOUNCE ANYONE.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> And Sam - as a side-note - in your post did you REALLY put homosexuality in the same sentence as DEVIL-WORSHIPPERS and MURDERERS ? I think you did. NOT the best way to frame a supposedly "two-sided" opinion statement. Please think about that.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2nd - Heather at <A href="mailto:HMP at hmpevents.com">HMP at hmpevents.com</A> writes : Why do homosexuals feel such a great need to make a big deal about their sexuality.<BR>Just be who you are and quit caring what other people think. <BR>Quit bragging about your sexual preference and go have some sex.  Maybe<BR>you'll feel better.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>WOW, HEATHER. I won't attack your statement, I'll simply answer your question. The answer is really simple: because we CAN'T "just be who we are" without constant persecution, ridicule, criticism, and flat-out discrimination. Happily, things have improved ALOT even in the ten years since I was in high-school and first started my own coming-out process - but let's not kid ourselves into thinking anti-gay discrimination and VIOLENCE is a thing of the past. Heather, YOU can walk down the street and hold your boyfriend's hand without worrying about whether or not you're in a "safe" neighborhood - I CAN'T. YOU aren't the victim of PUBLIC LEGISLATION telling me what I can and can't do in my PRIVATE life. YOU aren't LEGALLY REGARDED as a SECOND-CLASS CITIZEN with RESTRICTED CIVIL RIGHTS that SHOULD be a GIVEN in a truly just society. And finally, let's address the rather juvenile ending of your statement "quit bragging and go have some sex". Really? Wow. There's a little more to being gay than just the basic biology of it, dear. Statements like yours are PRECISELY the reason why I won't just "Be who I am without worrying about it". Until the public has the ACCURATE perception of "who i am" and indeed, who WE are, our visibility is the only thing allowing us to make strides towards equality. Please rethink your statement. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Thanks for reading my rant. I'll retire back to my cave and keep my opinion out of this for the remainder of the discussion (unless I get really irritated again). Thank you, Fred, for allowing this discussion to continue, for realizing that this community is about more than just audition notices, and for being the advocate that you are.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ryan Bergeron<BR></DIV>
<DIV>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Sam Jones IV <forwardphasers at yahoo.com><BR>To: neohiopal at lists.fredsternfeld.com<BR>Sent: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 06:23:44 -0700 (PDT)<BR>Subject: [NEohioPAL]The "GAY thing", TWO opinions in one<BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_2_e501ef8f-4ac9-435e-ac5e-c9c2bf275f48>
<DIV>I would like to offer a relatively two-sided opinion on the posting of the gays' outing since most people seem to be far to one side or the other when it comes to the whole gay issue.  I am straight and I consider that to be "normal".  I was raised in a religious home so I know that many religions consider it wrong to be gay according to their interpretation of the Bible, etc.  I also think it is odd that the gays and their supporters don't recognize that many straight people denounce homosexuality because they consider it their duty to oppose it.  And they are right!  Many churches expect the followers to oppose devil worshipers, muderers, and homosexuality.  I am not speaking to the issue of whether that is right or wrong.  I am simply pointing out the mindset that is so common but also overlooked.  If we are to accept and tolerate gays, then they should accept and tolerate religious folks who, by definition, are anti-gay.&n bsp; Now for the other side.  Since I am an adult, I realize there are more religions and other moral and behavioral standards other than the ones given to me as a child.  I not only accept and tolerate gays, other races, kids, the elderly, racists, drug addicts, and occult supporters, but I have friends in each of these categories.  I may never do what they do, but if I am truly an open-minded friend to them, I must accept what they do in order to be worthy of their acceptance of what I do.  The point is (like so many have already pointed out) that in this country, you can be or say whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone, force others to do it, or break any laws.  That is what these people are doing.  And so I applaud them for their tasteful expression of what used to be an upsetting topic of conversation for so many.  My son knows about gays and thinks it's "wierd" (he's 10 y.o.) but he also knows his father wi ll not tolerate unkind or condescending remarks about them.  He is to respect all people especially the one he does not fully understand.  I hope all the peope who frequent this list can be more like my son.   I have always appreciated the variety of postings on this list and I hope ALL of them will continue.  Actors and performers being censor-happy?  I don't get it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sam Jones</DIV>
<DIV>
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