[NEohioPAL]Genocide, Racism, and Homophobia - CONNECT THE DOTS
rfwb2000 at aol.com
rfwb2000 at aol.com
Fri Oct 7 13:06:25 PDT 2005
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C.BELL cab00244 at yahoo.com writes;
AND STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE EVERYONE THAT ITS THE SAME!!!!
This is perhaps one of the most ignorant and shameful statements I have ever read, and I will not even legitimize it by commenting on it in any more than a passing note:
ANY TIME THERE IS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST A GROUP OF PEOPLE IT IS BASED IN HATRED and IGNORANCE. For that reason, these causes are inextricably linked to one another. If you find offense in it, please examine your own feelings and biases to find the cause of that offense.
My sexual orientation is no more a "choice" than your skin color. Disagree all you may like, but having lived this particular struggle, AND lost loved ones, AND seen the suffering in much the same way YOU have, gives my testimony of a SIMPLE TRUTH far more weight than your ignorant speculation that my persecution is the result of some "choice".
The only difference between our struggle and yours is that today's hatred wears a much more clever and more thorough disguise.
Instead of trying to categorize and marginalize and claim "credit" for a struggle (what a PREPOSTEROUS notion, to want to lay claim to discrimination as though it is an exclusive province) why don't we all recognize the common thread and the common enemy, and try to lift one another up? My struggle (and the LEGITIMACY that results from it) in NO WAY detracts from your own.
Thanks.
RFB
-----Original Message-----
From: C.BELL <cab00244 at yahoo.com>
To: rfwb2000 at aol.com; NE OH PAL <neohiopal at lists.fredsternfeld.com>
Sent: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:28:45 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: Re: [NEohioPAL]The "GAY thing", TWO opinions in one,homos heteros
PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP COMPARING THE HOMOSEXUAL ISSUES AND CAUSES TO RACISM/ GENOCIDE...ONE HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OTHER!!
As a Black woman who have lost loved ones, witnessed and lived the struggle, oppression and hatred inflicted upon my people because of skin color,
NOT BEHAVIORAL CHOICES,..It is an insult to me and I am sure just about any Jewish person, for homosexuals to continue to try to draw parallels between the two.... There has never been a time in the history of this country where a gay person could be legally beat, tortured, murdered, bought, sold,(on the steps of Capitol Hill no less) seperated from family,have your name changed, it has never been illegal for you to learn to read,write own property, vote,and even be considered Human(by law)..So please, do us a favor..HAVE YOU STRUGGLE..FIGHT FOR YOU RIGHTS..DIE FOR THEM IF YOU HAVE TO (like we did)..BUT MAKE IT YOUR OWN..AND STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE EVERYONE THAT ITS THE SAME!!!!
rfwb2000 at aol.com wrote:
Ok Folks,
I've sat out of the public debate on this one thusfar, but I need to respond and present an opposite opinion to several of the posts I've just recently read.
1st - Sam Jones presented us with a "two-sided" opinion that stated that we should be understanding of those who denounce homosexuality because they consider it their "duty" as christians or as heterosexuals to do so. That's like saying I'm all for the respectable opinions of the KKK, or better yet, "Hitler wasn't all that bad, he was just doing what he felt was his duty". I mean, REALLY. I need to point out that "denouncing" homosexuality is NOT a tenet of all religous beliefs - rather, a teaching seized upon by some fundamentalists in SOME denominations. In fact, some denominations OPENLY CONDEMN the persecution of homosexuals (INCLUDING the ROMAN CATHOLIC CATHECHISM, which does call homosexuality a sin but commands love and respect in dealing with it). In my own humble opinion, ANY religion that asks us to "condemn" ANYONE based on their PEACEFUL practices that DO NOT INFRINGE on the rights of anyone else is a few steps removed from Godly . "I'm a Christian" is NOT a valid excuse for homophobia, and being "understanding" of this type of attitude is exactly what perpetuates it.
Guess what, folks - I'M a "CHRITSIAN", too. GOD made me the way I am, and GOD loves me for it. Love is the basic tenet of Christianity, and that love is NON-SELECTIVE. So, I conclude that NO RELIGION BASED IN CHRISTIAN LOVE CAN DEMAND IT's FOLLOWERS TO DENOUNCE ANYONE.
And Sam - as a side-note - in your post did you REALLY put homosexuality in the same sentence as DEVIL-WORSHIPPERS and MURDERERS ? I think you did. NOT the best way to frame a supposedly "two-sided" opinion statement. Please think about that.
2nd - Heather at HMP at hmpevents.com writes : Why do homosexuals feel such a great need to make a big deal about their sexuality.
Just be who you are and quit caring what other people think.
Quit bragging about your sexual preference and go have some sex. Maybe
you'll feel better.
WOW, HEATHER. I won't attack your statement, I'll simply answer your question. The answer is really simple: because we CAN'T "just be who we are" without constant persecution, ridicule, criticism, and flat-out discrimination. Happily, things have improved ALOT even in the ten years since I was in high-school and first started my own coming-out process - but let's not kid ourselves into thinking anti-gay discrimination and VIOLENCE is a thing of the past. Heather, YOU can walk down the street and hold your boyfriend's hand without worrying about whether or not you're in a "safe" neighborhood - I CAN'T. YOU aren't the victim of PUBLIC LEGISLATION telling me what I can and can't do in my PRIVATE life. YOU aren't LEGALLY REGARDED as a SECOND-CLASS CITIZEN with RESTRICTED CIVIL RIGHTS that SHOULD be a GIVEN in a truly just society. And finally, let's address the rather juvenile ending of your statement "quit bragging and go have some sex". Really? Wow. There's a little m ore to being gay than just the basic biology of it, dear. Statements like yours are PRECISELY the reason why I won't just "Be who I am without worrying about it". Until the public has the ACCURATE perception of "who i am" and indeed, who WE are, our visibility is the only thing allowing us to make strides towards equality. Please rethink your statement.
Thanks for reading my rant. I'll retire back to my cave and keep my opinion out of this for the remainder of the discussion (unless I get really irritated again). Thank you, Fred, for allowing this discussion to continue, for realizing that this community is about more than just audition notices, and for being the advocate that you are.
Regards,
Ryan Bergeron
-----Original Message-----
From: Sam Jones IV <forwardphasers at yahoo.com>
To: neohiopal at lists.fredsternfeld.com
Sent: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 06:23:44 -0700 (PDT)
Subject: [NEohioPAL]The "GAY thing", TWO opinions in one
I would like to offer a relatively two-sided opinion on the posting of the gays' outing since most people seem to be far to one side or the other when it comes to the whole gay issue. I am straight and I consider that to be "normal". I was raised in a religious home so I know that many religions consider it wrong to be gay according to their interpretation of the Bible, etc. I also think it is odd that the gays and their supporters don't recognize that many straight people denounce homosexuality because they consider it their duty to oppose it. And they are right! Many churches expect the followers to oppose devil worshipers, muderers, and homosexuality. I am not speaking to the issue of whether that is right or wrong. I am simply pointing out the mindset that is so common but also overlooked. If we are to accept and tolerate gays, then they should accept and tolerate religious folks who, by definition, are anti-gay.&a mp;n bsp; Now for the other side. Since I am an adult, I realize there are more religions and other moral and behavioral standards other than the ones given to me as a child. I not only accept and tolerate gays, other races, kids, the elderly, racists, drug addicts, and occult supporters, but I have friends in each of these categories. I may never do what they do, but if I am truly an open-minded friend to them, I must accept what they do in order to be worthy of their acceptance of what I do. The point is (like so many have already pointed out) that in this country, you can be or say whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone, force others to do it, or break any laws. That is what these people are doing. And so I applaud them for their tasteful expression of what used to be an upsetting topic of conversation for so many. My son knows about gays and thinks it's "wierd" (he's 10 y.o.) but he also knows his father wi ll not tolerate unkind or condescending remarks about them. He is to respect all people especially the one he does not fully understand. I hope all the peope who frequent this list can be more like my son. I have always appreciated the variety of postings on this list and I hope ALL of them will continue. Actors and performers being censor-happy? I don't get it.
Sam Jones
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
Yahoo! for Good
Click here to donate to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort.
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<HTML><BODY><DIV style='font-family: "Verdana"; font-size: 10pt;'><DIV><FONT color=#c00000><FONT size=4><FONT color=#000000 size=2>C.BELL <A href="mailto:cab00244 at yahoo.com">cab00244 at yahoo.com</A> writes;</FONT><BR></FONT></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#c00000><FONT size=4>AND STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE EVERYONE THAT ITS THE SAME!!!!</FONT> </FONT><BR></DIV>
<DIV>This is perhaps one of the most ignorant and shameful statements I have ever read, and I will not even legitimize it by commenting on it in any more than a passing note:</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>ANY TIME THERE IS DISCRIMINATION AGAINST A GROUP OF PEOPLE IT IS BASED IN HATRED and IGNORANCE. For that reason, these causes are inextricably linked to one another. If you find offense in it, please examine your own feelings and biases to find the cause of that offense.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>My sexual orientation is no more a "choice" than your skin color. Disagree all you may like, but having lived this particular struggle, AND lost loved ones, AND seen the suffering in much the same way YOU have, gives my testimony of a SIMPLE TRUTH far more weight than your ignorant speculation that my persecution is the result of some "choice".</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>The only difference between our struggle and yours is that today's hatred wears a much more clever and more thorough disguise.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Instead of trying to categorize and marginalize and claim "credit" for a struggle (what a PREPOSTEROUS notion, to want to lay claim to discrimination as though it is an exclusive province) why don't we all recognize the common thread and the common enemy, and try to lift one another up? My struggle (and the LEGITIMACY that results from it) in NO WAY detracts from your own.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Thanks.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>RFB</DIV>
<DIV><BR>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: C.BELL <cab00244 at yahoo.com><BR>To: rfwb2000 at aol.com; NE OH PAL <neohiopal at lists.fredsternfeld.com><BR>Sent: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 12:28:45 -0700 (PDT)<BR>Subject: Re: [NEohioPAL]The "GAY thing", TWO opinions in one,homos heteros<BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#c00000 size=4>PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE STOP COMPARING THE HOMOSEXUAL ISSUES AND CAUSES TO RACISM/ GENOCIDE...ONE HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH THE OTHER!!</FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#c00000 size=4></FONT> </DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><STRONG>As a Black woman who have lost loved ones, witnessed and lived the struggle, oppression and hatred inflicted upon my people because of skin color, </STRONG></FONT></DIV>
<DIV><FONT color=#0000bf><STRONG> <FONT color=#c00000>NOT BEHAVIORAL CHOICES</FONT>,..It is an insult to me and I am sure just about any Jewish person, for homosexuals to continue to try to draw parallels between the two.... There has never been a time in the history of this country where a gay person could be <FONT color=#ff0000>legally </FONT><FONT color=#0000ff><FONT color=#0000bf>beat, tortured</FONT>,</FONT> murdered, bought, sold<FONT color=#ff0000>,(on the steps of Capitol Hill no less</FONT>) seperated from family,have your name changed, it has never been illegal for you to learn to read,write own property, vote,and even be considered Human(by law)..So please, do us a favor</STRONG></FONT>..<FONT color=#c00000><FONT size=4>HAVE YOU STRUGGLE..FIGHT FOR YOU RIGHTS..DIE FOR THEM IF YOU HAVE TO <FONT color=#0000ff>(</FONT><FONT color=#0000ff>like we did)..</FONT>BUT MAKE IT YOUR OWN..AND STOP TRYING TO CONVINCE EVERYONE THAT ITS THE SAME!!!!</FONT> <BR></FONT><BR><B><I>rfwb2000 at aol.com</I></B> wrote:</DIV>
<BLOCKQUOTE class=replbq style="PADDING-LEFT: 5px; MARGIN-LEFT: 5px; BORDER-LEFT: #1010ff 2px solid">
<DIV style="FONT-SIZE: 10pt; FONT-FAMILY: 'Verdana'">
<DIV>Ok Folks, </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>I've sat out of the public debate on this one thusfar, but I need to respond and present an opposite opinion to several of the posts I've just recently read.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>1st - Sam Jones presented us with a "two-sided" opinion that stated that we should be understanding of those who denounce homosexuality because they consider it their "duty" as christians or as heterosexuals to do so. That's like saying I'm all for the respectable opinions of the KKK, or better yet, "Hitler wasn't all that bad, he was just doing what he felt was his duty". I mean, REALLY. I need to point out that "denouncing" homosexuality is NOT a tenet of all religous beliefs - rather, a teaching seized upon by some fundamentalists in SOME denominations. In fact, some denominations OPENLY CONDEMN the persecution of homosexuals (INCLUDING the ROMAN CATHOLIC CATHECHISM, which does call homosexuality a sin but commands love and respect in dealing with it). In my own humble opinion, ANY religion that asks us to "condemn" ANYONE based on their PEACEFUL practices that DO NOT INFRINGE on the rights of anyone else is a few steps removed from Godly . "I'm a Christian" is NOT a valid excuse for homophobia, and being "understanding" of this type of attitude is exactly what perpetuates it.</DIV>
<DIV>Guess what, folks - I'M a "CHRITSIAN", too. GOD made me the way I am, and GOD loves me for it. Love is the basic tenet of Christianity, and that love is NON-SELECTIVE. So, I conclude that NO RELIGION BASED IN CHRISTIAN LOVE CAN DEMAND IT's FOLLOWERS TO DENOUNCE ANYONE.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> And Sam - as a side-note - in your post did you REALLY put homosexuality in the same sentence as DEVIL-WORSHIPPERS and MURDERERS ? I think you did. NOT the best way to frame a supposedly "two-sided" opinion statement. Please think about that.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>2nd - Heather at <A href="javascript:parent.ComposeTo('HMP at hmpevents.com');">HMP at hmpevents.com</A> writes : Why do homosexuals feel such a great need to make a big deal about their sexuality.<BR>Just be who you are and quit caring what other people think. <BR>Quit bragging about your sexual preference and go have some sex. Maybe<BR>you'll feel better.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>WOW, HEATHER. I won't attack your statement, I'll simply answer your question. The answer is really simple: because we CAN'T "just be who we are" without constant persecution, ridicule, criticism, and flat-out discrimination. Happily, things have improved ALOT even in the ten years since I was in high-school and first started my own coming-out process - but let's not kid ourselves into thinking anti-gay discrimination and VIOLENCE is a thing of the past. Heather, YOU can walk down the street and hold your boyfriend's hand without worrying about whether or not you're in a "safe" neighborhood - I CAN'T. YOU aren't the victim of PUBLIC LEGISLATION telling me what I can and can't do in my PRIVATE life. YOU aren't LEGALLY REGARDED as a SECOND-CLASS CITIZEN with RESTRICTED CIVIL RIGHTS that SHOULD be a GIVEN in a truly just society. And finally, let's address the rather juvenile ending of your statement "quit bragging and go have some sex". Really? Wow. There's a little m ore to being gay than just the basic biology of it, dear. Statements like yours are PRECISELY the reason why I won't just "Be who I am without worrying about it". Until the public has the ACCURATE perception of "who i am" and indeed, who WE are, our visibility is the only thing allowing us to make strides towards equality. Please rethink your statement. </DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV> Thanks for reading my rant. I'll retire back to my cave and keep my opinion out of this for the remainder of the discussion (unless I get really irritated again). Thank you, Fred, for allowing this discussion to continue, for realizing that this community is about more than just audition notices, and for being the advocate that you are.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Regards,</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Ryan Bergeron<BR></DIV>
<DIV>-----Original Message-----<BR>From: Sam Jones IV <forwardphasers at yahoo.com><BR>To: neohiopal at lists.fredsternfeld.com<BR>Sent: Fri, 7 Oct 2005 06:23:44 -0700 (PDT)<BR>Subject: [NEohioPAL]The "GAY thing", TWO opinions in one<BR><BR></DIV>
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<DIV id=AOLMsgPart_2_e501ef8f-4ac9-435e-ac5e-c9c2bf275f48>
<DIV>I would like to offer a relatively two-sided opinion on the posting of the gays' outing since most people seem to be far to one side or the other when it comes to the whole gay issue. I am straight and I consider that to be "normal". I was raised in a religious home so I know that many religions consider it wrong to be gay according to their interpretation of the Bible, etc. I also think it is odd that the gays and their supporters don't recognize that many straight people denounce homosexuality because they consider it their duty to oppose it. And they are right! Many churches expect the followers to oppose devil worshipers, muderers, and homosexuality. I am not speaking to the issue of whether that is right or wrong. I am simply pointing out the mindset that is so common but also overlooked. If we are to accept and tolerate gays, then they should accept and tolerate religious folks who, by definition, are anti-gay.&a mp;n bsp; Now for the other side. Since I am an adult, I realize there are more religions and other moral and behavioral standards other than the ones given to me as a child. I not only accept and tolerate gays, other races, kids, the elderly, racists, drug addicts, and occult supporters, but I have friends in each of these categories. I may never do what they do, but if I am truly an open-minded friend to them, I must accept what they do in order to be worthy of their acceptance of what I do. The point is (like so many have already pointed out) that in this country, you can be or say whatever you want as long as you don't hurt anyone, force others to do it, or break any laws. That is what these people are doing. And so I applaud them for their tasteful expression of what used to be an upsetting topic of conversation for so many. My son knows about gays and thinks it's "wierd" (he's 10 y.o.) but he also knows his father wi ll not tolerate unkind or condescending remarks about them. He is to respect all people especially the one he does not fully understand. I hope all the peope who frequent this list can be more like my son. I have always appreciated the variety of postings on this list and I hope ALL of them will continue. Actors and performers being censor-happy? I don't get it.</DIV>
<DIV> </DIV>
<DIV>Sam Jones</DIV>
<DIV>
<HR SIZE=1>
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