[NEohioPAL] "to review or not to review" REDUX - see the results and comm...
KevinJosephKelly at aol.com
KevinJosephKelly at aol.com
Sat Jun 26 09:30:13 PDT 2010
the new Neohiopal bumper sticker will be available soon:
Don't Need It, Delete It!
thank you
but jim, you are allowed to rant too :)
In a message dated 6/26/2010 12:10:26 P.M. Eastern Daylight Time,
fsternfeld at gmail.com writes:
Hi Everybody,
When Neohiopal was in its infancy in 2003, the issue of whether to allow
reviews and opinions came up and I polled the subscriber base. Below is a
reprint (I have removed the email addresses because many are obsolete) of
that poll, the results, and comments from the subscribers.
AGAIN, THIS WAS ORIGINALLY SENT OUT TO NEOHIOPAL IN 2003.
Enjoy ...
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Yes (keep the reviews) -- 167
No (get rid of the reviews) -- 59
SO, REVIEWS OF ALL KINDS WILL STAY A PART OF THE NEohioPAL SCOPE.
The comments were varied and instructive and I have included many (with
permission of the authors) at the end of this e-mail.
NEohioPAL Mission Statement:
The Northeast Ohio Performing Arts List exists: (in random order)
1) to promote cooperation & support within the performing arts community
2) to promote free discussion of our work by providing a forum for
critical opinion and educational essays
3) to provide arts organizations and individual artists an easy way to
promote their events thereby making the whole performing arts community
immediately aware of opportunities.
Here are some "rules" that should help each of you remain satisfied with
the content of NEohioPAL...
1) All reviews will be clearly marked with the word "review" in the
subject line. That way those of you who don't want to read them can delete
them without opening. I will continue to forward all of Roy Berko's
reviews. If other professional critics (defined as someone hired by the media to
review) decide to post to the list, those will be forwarded as well. If you
are seeking reviews, you can easily access them on-line by going to these
websites: The Plain Dealer -- _www.cleveland.com_
(http://www.cleveland.com/) , The Cleveland Scene -- _www.clevescene.com_
(http://www.clevescene.com/) , The Cleveland Free Times -- _www.freetimes.com_
(http://www.freetimes.com/) , The Cleveland Jewish News -- _www.clevelandjewishnews.com_
(http://www.clevelandjewishnews.com/) . There may be others, but I am not aware
of them.
2) All of Jeff Holland's "Ike and Mike" reviews will be prefaced in
the subject line with: 'Mike & Ike satirical review of.....' That way
those of you who don't want to read them can delete them without opening.
3) All personal reviews, editorials, commentary, etc. should be
clearly marked as such in the subject line: A few examples.....
"My Opinion of....."
"Personal Review of...."
"Personal Opinion of..."
or something else that makes it clear that the content is solely the
opinion of the writer. That way those of you who don't want to read them can
delete them without opening. Up to this point, the posting of these kinds of
messages has been minimal. If they increase significantly I will create a
message board / forum that will be linked to my website to allow for ongoing
discussion.
If you have any complaints about the content of a message, please reply to
the poster.
The rest of this e-mail contains subscriber comments about the "to review
or not to review" issue. I contacted each person to ask permission to post
their comments. If they decided to post their comments they had the option
of signing it with their name, e-mail address or 'anonymous.' If you
don't want to read the personal opinions below, by all means close this
message and delete it.
To those of you who participated in this poll, Thank You.
Warm Regards,
Fred Sternfeld
_http://www.fredsternfeld.com_ (http://www.fredsternfeld.com/)
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Angry letters are the bane of any publication, including an
e-list. My advise is to ignore the angry letters, and keep posting the
reviews. Any censorship is evil-even if it's done with good
intentions.
I vote yes.-Tim Smith
Senior Designer/Webmaster
Cleveland Free Times
-- and --
Dobama Company Member
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Professionally: Let freedom of speech win out and include what is submitted
that is directly related to theatre. Your readers can press the delete key
as needed.
Personally: I am not thrilled about the personal reviews as stand alone
e-mails. I would prefer that if reviews were used (only by theatres
performing that show) that they be used in conjunction with the details
regarding the run, tickets, etc. If I want to read a review, I can pick up
a reputable paper and read the review of the professional critic on staff.
Sandra Emerick
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Yes - I have come to know which reviews I want to read and which not-the
same as I know by the subject which messages I read and which I don't.
Thanks for your work on this list, Fred-it is a great means of communication.
Laurel Hart
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I feel that this wonderful website should not be used for personal
opinion. However, I do believe that professional critiques provide insights
usable as a learning tool for actors and directors alike. Jeff Holland's
parodies have nothing to offer; educationally or otherwise, and I for one would
like to have 'ike and mike' discontinued. In allowing 'ike and mike' to
continue could open a floodgate of chat-room repartee that is not appropriate
to this particular website. Thank you for asking my opinion and for all
the time and effort you put into this fine website.
Anonymous
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A resounding yes!
I am all for a nurturing enviornment, but this is show business!
Andrew May
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YES! Keep reviews in the list! I have no other way of reading some
reviews-like Roy Berko's-without subscribing to the publications he
is printed in. Plus, as a community, if someone feels really strongly
about a production-so much so that they want to share it with everyone
on this list-I want to know.
If people don't want to read them, don't!
Thanks for keeping up this service by the way. It's incredibly
informative!
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if it matters-
make a separate mailing list for those who wish to receive them. I for one
would rather not have extra mail if I don't have to.
Anonymous
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Yes, and the people who send angry, unfair letters to Fred should be
removed from the list.
Anonymous
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I personally enjoy the reviews, both informal and formal-I think I would
draw the line at personal comments expressed as "letters" (which I have
rarely seen here). And I feel that informal reviews should only be of a
positive nature; more in the nature of a recommendation to the list to see a
particular show.
I feel that it is of great benefit to see well-thought out descriptions of
productions (in fact, I have written one:)-- I have found out about shows
I wouldn't have known about other wise; and for the actors praised in such
communiqués, it is a nice pat on the back!
Sincerely, Lissy Gulick
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Let everyone's opinion - negative or positive - be voiced. It's good to
face the vitriol as well as the nectar.. I feel strongly about this.
Thomas Q. Fulton, Jr.
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I don't think they belong on the list. At best they're mildly irritating
- when they come in floods from certain puffed-up theaters who will go
unnamed, I feel it smacks of elitism and unnecessary bragging. We know where
the reviews are - if we want to read them, we'll find them. Just my opinion.
Anonymous
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YES! Freedom of Speech should always win.
If someone starts spouting obvious filth, we might want to revisit, but
anyone in the theatre should have a thick enough hide to withstand the
occasional negative comment...
Cheers.
Wayne Turney
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I vote for the elimination of reviews and editorializing. I too
believe in the First Amendment. Indeed, I am a bit of
a fanatic about it. On the other hand I think what you
put together with the FredWeb is something special
that has a specific purpose. As you stated, if a
theatre organization wants to publicize something from
the paper...fine. But to get into a tit for tat...is
counterproductive to what I think you are trying to do
here.
Indeed, Actor's Summit's hubris was in allowing Tony
Brown to review a play that obviously was not ready to
be reviewed. That's why phones were invented, to call
the critic and say that 'we are not ready to be
reviewed!' Review it next week with a more jaundiced
eye, but do it next week when we are more prepared. I
recall Lucia and Licia had a show at Ensemble that was
trashed because of lines not being memorized. '
Perhaps you should start a web of public opinion
concerning the theatre and theatre productions.
Well, that's my two cents Fred. Thanks for the forum.
Martin Friedman, Ph.D.
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I DON'T think that personal opinions or reviews either + or -, by amateurs
or pro's should be posted. If people want to share their reviews, they
should send it to their personal email list, or to a message board that we
all agree to access for NEOHIOPAL. As a matter of fact, wasn't one set up
way back when? This is a terrific service. I access it for a variety of
reasons, but NOT to hear what Joe Blow thinks about The production of
Oklahoma at Chagrin Valley Little Theater or any other production/venue for that
matter. It will become un-terrific if it becomes an on line "podium".
As long as you're asking, here are the listings that I look for as an
entertainer and employer:
1. Audition/casting notices
2. Meeting notices; union or otherwise relating to the entertainment
industry
3. Production dates
4. News i.e.: "_(your name here) , is appearing on The Soprano's Sunday
at 9pm" or any unbiased "news" pertaining to anyone in any sector of
entertainment
5. Workshop/class notices
6. Hirings, firings and other re-org's ie: "Andrew May is the new
assistant artistic dir. at The CPH" or "James Bundy is leaving GLTF to work at
Yale University"
But NOT what you or anyone else "thinks" about any of these subjects.
There are newsletters, web sites and personal emails for that purpose.
That's what I think!
Thanks for asking.
Jean Zarzour
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Personally, I don't want to see reviews. Don't look at it as censorship
so much as traffic control - we get tons of emails that are just notices
about upcoming events and that is what this list should be used for -
opportunities and event announcements - not reviews - let someone else start a
"Review List" - you must be busy enough -
for what it's worth - and thanks for asking -
Anonymous
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I think if you post the reviews from the "professional reviewers", you
have to post the personal reviews, as well. I feel that it is the right
choice. I personally liked reading Hester's comments, and am happy to have
another opinion other than Roy Berko's! I feel that an open discourse is not only
appropriate for theatre, but the varying opinions are essential to
theatre.
also, there is a little thing known as the "delete" button. If I choose
not to read the Mike and Ike stuff, all I have to do is just push the
"delete" and it goes away really easily.
how dare these people send you angry e-mails. if they don't like it, then
let them leave your listing and set up their own system. I think you should
just choose to "delete" their messages without reading them!
Sheila Maloney
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You know, all I wanted to do was something just a little different, ,maybe
make some people laugh, and bring back some popular characters from my
film criticism days. I'm sorry if I've caused you any undue weariness. That
was not my intention.
I'm gonna get one more review in before the High Sheriff's (To use Joe Bob
Briggs' term) vote to send me to Siberia. It's going to be for "The Ro
bber Bridegroom" a show at the University of Akron that I am in that opens
this week. What's funny is most of the cast and the director are on the list
and they can't wait for it. lol
Anyway, before the axe does fall, I just wanted to say again that I really
appreciate you letting me do these. A lot of my "fans" have subscribed to
my list that I'm building, so at least when it comes down I have another,
albeit smaller outlet.
And, on the off chance that the intelligent people win (I'm sorry, but
this entire debate is stupid. However, we must listen to the masses) I will
happily continue to piss off more people and make even more laugh.
Sorry about the length of this. Guess these are my comments to your
question. I'm not going to vote either way, since I'm part of the controversy.
Now, let's just see what happens.
I'll have the review of my show in hopefully tomorrow.
Jeff Holland (Mike and Ike)
P.S. my one bitter gripe about this whole mess: Jeez, you'd think
theatre people would have a sense of humor. Oh, well. k, I'm done now.
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Reviewing the Reviewers:
In addition to my previous comments, I just want to say that I think the
"Ike and Mike" reviews by Jeff Holland are terrific. They are witty,
ingenious, and well-crafted, and provide a clean, fresh view of the role of
performing arts in our lives.
Many of us have gone to colleges and been through theater arts programs
that emphasized the involvement of the student in theater production, through
acting, design, production work, etc. Few programs, however, ever
emphasize the audience's role-it amazes me how film students will see prodigious
numbers of movies and television programs in their classes, while theater
students have to rely on their imaginations to visualize play texts in our
history classes. We aren't taught to actually go to the theater and
appreciate drama in our own programs, surprisingly enough.
What I like about Holland's reviews is that the characters in his little
dramas (also a clever rhetorical effect) give the sense of having no
intellectual baggage when they walk into the theater; they are there for the
experience alone. And that's how they comment on it, with very few
preconceptions. This is a distinctly American viewpoint on theater, and one that needs
to be revived.
After reading Jeff's reviews, other reviews seem stiffly formal,
formulaic, and consumer-oriented. The "Ike and Mike" reviews to me are a breath of
fresh air, and I look forward to every one. Long live Ike and Mike!
· Jim Smith
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I vote YES. I read the reviews I'm interested in and delete the rest,
unopened. We don't all get all of the papers or know where to look for the
reviews on the web (or have the time, for that matter). But if it's not
worth the hassle to you for all the negative mail you get, I understand. As
it is, this is a great service to all of us.
Anonymous
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I am saddened that, in this post-911 era we now find ourselves in, you
have
been put in this position. for god's sake people grow up. if you don't
want to read the review/opinion - hit the delete button and stop using Fred
as a dumping ground.
Evelyn Carr
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I favor including the reviews, but not the personal opinions, as this is
not a discussion list. Let listers discuss their opinions back channel.
And I would not tolerate angry letters, which are, after all, only personal
opinions. Again, if your policy is to include reviews, there's no point in
venting against you when you include something someone doesn't want.
And if you continue to get flack about the reviews, I'd favor your
discontinuing them altogether. You're providing a valuable service to the
artistic community, and there's no reason you should be abused for that
service.
Thank you for being there.
Carole Clement Mentor, Ohio USA
_http://www.cadvision.com/sdempsey/clement.htm_
(http://www.cadvision.com/sdempsey/clement.htm)
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wow! That's a tough call. Since the whole "critic" thing is totally
subjective anyway, maybe there needs to be an opt-in forum to present those.
Perhaps a message board? I know it's more work for you if you choose that
route, but maybe someone on the list would be willing to facilitate something
like that?
Kathy Whitmore
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Hell yes! Keep it all in!
Andrew B. Narten
Producer, JazzTracks
WCPN / 90.3 FM
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First of all, I am always amazed at the number of people who, over the
years, TELL you how to run this service. A friendly suggestion is fine, but
how about remembering that this service is provided as a courtesy to all
fellow performing artists, free of charge. HELLOOOOOOOOOOOO!!!
I personally don't find a problem with any reviews that are public
anyway(i.e- PD SCENE etc..). I suppose if something is REALLY out of line and not
public, you reserve the right to not post it on NEOpal lists.
Critics all have their own opinions. Some have professionalism handle all
shows with a graceful tact-whether or not is a positive or negative review.
Others are crude and classless in their approach (which doesn't gain an
ounce of respect in my book) I know many times I agree with them and just as
many I DON'T. Critics are not the be all end all BUT reviews are a part of
this business and unfortunately we have to deal with them. How about if we
all get our OWN spine and decide for ourselves how we feel about
productions. ITS OK NOT TO AGREE WITH THE CRITIC.
Anonymous
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YES. I think that reviews SHOULD be allowed in the newsletter. If people
feel that their shows have something to hide, they shouldn't be out there
at
all. That's what performing is. I also wanted to say that the purpose of
this newsletter isn't to be warm and fuzzy and just give praise, but to
give
critical commentary about the Cleveland arts environment. There are
discussions about all different aspects of theater, good and bad, and if
honest reviews are not deemed appropriate for this venue, then I am not
sure
I want to be a part of this group. I will go to the newspapers and free
times to get HONEST reviews, and come to this e-mail string if my ego is
down and I only want powder puff praise.
I praise you for allowing these reviews on your list, however I understand
if you are forced to remove them. Sometimes you just have to pick your
battles.
Anonymous
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Yes, freedom of speech....yes, yes, yes. Isn't that what art is all about?
Deanna
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In the spirit of positivity and simple basic grace towards one's fellow
artist (something often sadly lacking in the world today) I vote for no
personal opinions or negative reviews. Criticism is essential to art, but
the context of the criticism is also important for the art to flourish.
I'm
not convinced that the opinion of the general subscriber to this list can
be
defined as constructive criticism.
As to the "free speech" issue. If one is passionately interested in having
her opinion made public, it is quite easy these days to create one's own
public forum with a web-page.
Thanks for asking....
Becca Fishel Bright
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NO.
My opinion is that you're very generous and kind to have organized this
mailing list and YOU DO NOT NEED ANY ADDITIONAL GRIEF from those who disagree
with someone else's opinion that has shown up on the list. This list is
NOT a chat room. If it was, I wouldn't be a member of it. Frankly, I
don't read most of what comes thru on the list UNLESS I AM SPECIFICALLY
INTERESTED based on the subject matter. I don't have time to read everything and
I will continue to do so whether reviews/peoples' opinions are on the list
or not. If people are disturbed by others' opinions, they should not read
them. Just because it's there doesn't mean you have to give it your
attention. Therefore, my NO response to your question is based on the fact that
you, as list moderator, need not have the added burden of supervising
children playing during recess. It gets messy.
Ksenia
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YES-I agree that all reviews and opinions should be expressed. Tell the
complainers to go get a life! Don't they know how to hit the delete button if
they don't want to read something. It's your website!
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no, reviews & personal opinions should not be part of neohiopal. the
link thing is okay (the way you do it, i.e. for reviews go to....etc.)
thanks
Anonymous
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Yes, everyone is entitled to their opinion - you have the choice not to
read
them if you don't care to. Let them submit the reviews for those who would
like to hear other opinions. (Thanks for asking!)
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YES - Keep all reviews and opinions in. I enjoy reading differing
opinions.
It gives the reader an unbiased review of the show(s) in question. I have
read so many great reviews about shows that were not worth the time or
money, so if at least one other person offers another perspective it would
be appreciated. I know the atmosphere is "supportive" but there are so
many
great shows that never get coverage - and if all we read are good reviews
of
bad shows, it makes the unrecognized casts feel worse. I would like to see
more reviews altogether.
Thank You,
Larry Braun
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I would continue to send what you have been sending
for personal opinions, maybe that literally could be put in the heading so
someone can delete it if they don't want to read it, I don't feel that
personal opinions need to be sent but if it is in the heading then I can
delete it
but any type of reviewer or consistent reviewer should be sent with detail
in the heading so people have the choice of reading it or not
but folks have always had the option of deleting what they don't want to
read
it would be the same if someone read a review or article in a newspaper,
if the author offended you, then you just wouldn't read his review or column
again
and yes, it is free speech
sincere in support
Anonymous
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Because I was at work when I responded, I didn't take the time to address
another matter, but I'd like to now. Clearly, myself and several other
people felt strongly enough about this issue to contact you, and I really
didn't appreciate that we were mocked in Jeff Holland's review for "Saturday
Night." I'm specifically speaking of his comment "That ought to be good for
another couple of angry letters." (Mine, for one, certainly wasn't
"angry.")
I'm sorry to see you allowing the list to be used in this way, and that's
why I think that limiting "reviews" and other personal opinions, and
focusing on the dissemination of valuable arts information (which I believe has
always been your intention), would be the best solution here.
Anonymous
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I think FREEDOM OF SPEECH should be exercised on "THE LIST" and to prove
it so...I have met over 35 people thanks to a listing I put on re: JOINING
SAG and putting in my 5 cents in re: SCAM AGENCIES!
In no way were those email "OPINION" based and in fact, they were pasted
from SAG.com and a letter sent to me by my attorney.
Another writer, Bobby, posted FACTS re: agencies in his email that helped
EVEN ME understand the EIC code of ethics rules re: agent operations.
I think what is happening is that the guilty parties are feeling a little
uncomfortable with the TRUTH.
I am all for "POSITIVE" listing or information that PRODUCES positive
results. Thanks to my listings, I have helped over 35 people understand SAG
better and now they actually visit my site to share positive information with
me.
Thank you.
Mitch Berlingeri
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Isn't allowing only positive reviews a little one sided?...even if they
are used by each organization to promote their show. Art is, by it's
nature, controversial; and as an Arts forum, this list has the obligation to air
both sides. We, as artists, are aware that each review is only one
person's OPINION...whether it is good or bad. Personally, "dueling reviews"
always make me more curious to see the production.
I say, let 'em all in! Not every show is a winner...if we don't
experience some not so good shows, how will we recognize the truly wonderful ones?
Lenne Snively
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My vote is to keep reviews and personal opinions; I don't mind a bit and
read the "Ike & Mike" column, especially if I've seen the show. Thanks,
Fred!
Pamela Sago
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Interesting that you ask the question since I was wondering about that
myself. I noticed the list gets a little out of hand. My initial thought was
not to publish, but if you're going to publish the positive reviews, then
all the rest should be allowed as well. That's part of theater. People upset
with them should realize that. By performing you put yourself out there and
have to realize some people may not like what they see. What I find
particularly annoying is posts or comments that mention other reviews as if the
person was incorrect in their opinion. It's an opinion. Anyway, I guess I'd
let them run. What you may want to do, to cut down on the clutter, is put a
limit on the number of posts about a particular show or topic. It seems
some folks put announcements up when someone sneezes and it just seems a bit
much. The current topic fits with this since one of the theaters involved
always seems to post opening announcements, midrun announcements, closing
announcements, reviews, letters in response to reviews, yada, yada, yada.
Good people, good shows, but the clutter is a bit much and obscures messages
from others. Anyway, that's just my opinion. And like a review, you can
agree or disagree but I thank you for letting me put it out there.
Anonymous
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I think you should send out whatever is in the best interest of theater in
Cleveland....
And tell the people who complain about the reviews to learn how to scroll
past them. :)
Anonymous
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It seems to me that, since this is a free service you offer, and not a
"club" or organization that requires membership or the payment of dues, you
should be free to send out anything you want, within the guidelines of
keeping people posted about events, etc. in the world of the arts. If people
don't like what you're sending them, they are free to stop getting the e-mails
at any time. I also feel that people in the arts who can't accept
criticism, whether constructive or not, are in the wrong business.
Lori
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I believe that criticism, either good or bad, is part of the business-and
therefore appropriate material for a theater-business mailing. The Indiwire
(Independent film email list) includes reviews of films, why should you
exclude it. Especially since your emails are always titled, if someone
chooses, they do not need to read a review.
Thanks for asking,
Joe Ruffner
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I was in the cast of "The Hairy Ape" at CPT. While we got mostly great
reviews from The Plain Dealer and The Free Times, Roy Berko had some things
to say that, though largely negative, were helpful and thought provoking for
me to read. As artists, we put ourselves out there knowing that we will
at one time or another be subject to some form of critical analysis. I
think it is refreshing to get this sort of feedback from colleagues (after
all, who better to assess our work?), rather than some pretentious newspaper
critic. You are right. This list is intended to be a means of collective
support. It is for that reason that you should consider continuing to mail
reviews. I say this because true constructive criticism is intended to
help us grow, and if we are all REALLY here to support each other, that should
be a primary goal. An idea for you might be to designate/allow as many as
2-6 "critics". The varying viewpoints could be very interesting. I enjoy
Roy Berko's cut and dry critiques equally as much as I enjoy Jeff
Holland's light-hearted dialogues. I may be just another idealist, but I really do
think people are being too touchy. I think that we can only benefit from
seeing the world from many different angles.
Sincerely,
Megan Elk
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Although I see several of those reviews listed in the Plain Dealer or
elsewhere, having them listed helps those who don't subscribe to the papers. I
suppose I would vote "yes" because I've enjoyed the contradictory
viewpoints from those read in the newspapers and WHY they found the production
positive, etc. If I'm not interested, a simple push of the delete button isn't
much work!
Thank you for this wonderful service and the time you devote to it.
Anonymous
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yes. As a non performer (but a performer's parent) I have found myself
attending more shows because of the legitimate reviews. This list has made
me realize what a live theater environment we are in.
Maybe if you have people who submit reviews, put in the Subject: REVIEW:
title, etc. that way you know it is just that.
Thank you!!! Shirley O'Connor
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Yes. It is, and should be, an open forum. The free exchange of ideas is
what its about. Keep up the good work.
Noah Budin
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It's too bad that you are getting the angry letters. It's a shame that
some people don't have a sense of humor. The 'Ike and Mike' reviews are really
not meant to be reviews - they are just humorous banter about a show they
have seen.
My vote is 'yes'. I say don't censor - freedom of speech should prevail.
Thanks for heading up this e-mail list. I've found it to be very valuable.
I'm sure it can be somewhat time consuming on your part. I applaud your
efforts!
Thanks,
Theresa Benyo
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LET FREEDOM RING!
If people don't want to read them then don't read them!
I don't like half the reviews I read or at least don't agree with them but
it is the job of the reviewer to do just that review...for better or
worse. We all know that 2 people can see the same show and come out with two
incredibly different opinions! It happened twice within the past month, see
"The Interview" and "Virginia Wolf" vis a vi Tony Brown and Roy Berko.
However it is not your job to censor. I complain about reviewers and
reviews as much as anyone but in this case I believe the open forum serves a
greater purpose.
Keep them in
Anonymous
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I think you should absolutely include reviews in your emails. you clearly
state in the subject line that it is in fact a review. if there a person
or
persons who do not like to read the reviews, they can delete or bypass the
mail without ever opening it.
further, we are actors, actresses, singers, dancers, designers, etc. it is
our job, the job we have chosen to do to perform and display our craft for
an audience. it is the nature of the business to put ourselves in a
situation for spectator feedback. if people can't handle the negative
criticisms along with the positive, perhaps the should choose a different
field to work in.
thank you for the opportunity to share my thoughts.
sincerely,
jenna messina
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Yes, by all means include reviews, I don't particularly find Ike and Mike
humorous, or to my liking, but you know what? I can delete it!
Judy MacKeigan
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--------
I've been a working actor in NYC for the past 7 years(Originally from NW
Ohio) and I truly enjoy all the emails I receive regarding what's going on
in the theatre world in Cleveland and Canton, etc...
I happened to read the "Mike & Ike" review of Carousel Dinner Theatre's
"Phantom" and was quite amused. I believe, as artists, if we cannot laugh at
ourselves and our craft that we take oh so seriously 99% of the
time...then where are we?
There are plenty of folks out there that see plays and musicals alike,
like "Phantom", and respond similarly to the way the "Ike and Mike" script
responded. I think everyone has the right to express their opinion even if it
is an unfavorable one in the industry. It's still the truth to a group of
people. (however large or small.)
Most people didn't like the NY Times review of Frank Wildhorne's "Cival
War"...but the truth of the matter is it was an enormous piece of commercial
crap that made very little sense. I say...let's call a spade a spade.
Even if my spade may be different than someone else's.
Sincerely,
Joe from NYC
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YES!
This is a great list service and recently, I have been
even M O R E impressed with the valuable information
listed regarding agencies and the scams that they may
or may not portray.
Let me also tell you this: I have been acting on stage
for quite some time. Maybe it's just pure laziness,
but I have never taken the time to fully understand
the rules of SAG.
Well, a listing from a member made things much clearer
for me. So much in fact, that I did some research and
they were right on!
So I thank them, as well as you. Why? For allowing
such postings, freedom of speech and most importantly:
a really terrific service to the acting community!
Carmen Marrero
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----------------
This is in response to the question regarding reviews and opinions being
posted on the NEohioPAL Lists. I am a strong advocate for freedom of
speech, and yet I can also see how some would rather not see them. In the
theatres I have worked in thus far, directors and producers request to
their
cast that discussion of reviews not take place in the theatre, as not to
disrupt or offend any company member who does not care to see them. They
also tell the cast where the reviews will be posted, for those who wish to
read them. I believe that the NEohioPAL list is set up the same way. The
list of topics that precludes the actual information has been invaluable to
me. For those people who do not want to read those pieces that are reviews
or opinions of shows, I would suggest to them that they note where they are
in the group. Then simply bypass them, or depending on your e-mail setup,
don't open them. If anyone has a problem still, perhaps they should be
reminded that NEohioPAL is a free listing, and it's very rude to bitch and
moan about a free service. On that note, I would like to thank Fred
Sternfeld for this service, and the time he has spent in keeping it
together. In the three years I have been in Cleveland, the NEohioPAL list
has helped to integrate me into Cleveland Theatre and to make friendships
that I will cherish forever. Thank you, Fred.
Sincerely Yours,
Sabrina Gibbar
Producer, Dobama's Night Kitchen
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---------
I say yes.
However, w/ regards to personal opinion "reviews," perhaps you should set
up a rule that the personal opinion has to be written like a review or a
letter to the editor, and people must be able to command the English language
i.e. be well written (sorry, I'm really punchy this morning...)
I'm sorry these angry opinions are wearing you out...
I appreciate your willingness to continue posting positive reviews as pr.
It really does help, especially the smaller budget theatres.
I hope you are well, and Fred, I continue to support what you are doing w/
this list.
Anonymous
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-----------
Just thought I'd throw my two cents in on this topic.
First, I'm sure you know you can never make everyone
happy. Let me suggest a compromise.
If there are folks who want to make reviews available
to the list members, perhaps they could post them to
an independent web page and provide that link to the
list. It would mean a bit more work for the reviewer
but all-text web pages are not too difficult or time
consuming. In that way, those of us who enjoy the
reviews (like me) can go read them and the others will
not be "bothered".
Second and finally, thanks for the list. I live in
Canton, so many of the gig notices are a bit out of my
way, but it is good to be kept up to date on the state
of the arts in all of NE Ohio instead of just my tiny
corner of it. Keep up the good work and don't let the
bastards get you down.
Deb Salberg
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-------
No - For your sake, Fred, the simpler the better. I, too, believe in
freedom of speech and opinion. However, sometimes you can get too many chiefs
in the tent. If the list is kept to a non-biased display of audition
info, classes, and shows, no one can be offended or complain to you. You put a
ton of hard work into this list, and it shows. I am a novice actress
trying to get some experience in this line of work. If it weren't for your
list, I can honestly say I'm not sure I would have been able to learn so much
about the acting community and its auditions in Cleveland. Keep up the
great work!
Sincerely,
Amy Annico
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I sure don't want to make more work for you, but I do not like reviews
and personal opinions on neopal. Everyone thinks their own (or their
friends') show is the greatest. A link to a review allows the reader
decide if he wants to find out someone else's opinion.
Joe Kerata
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---------
How awful for you that you do this wonderful e-mail list and not be shown
the gratitude what you are doing deserves! It is such a wonderful
marketing
tool: quick, easy, and free, and reaches so many people. Anyway, here's
what I think since you asked for our votes. If I'm not interested in the
show, I don't read the review. Professional reviews such as Roy Berko's
are
published and circulated anyway, so I don't see a problem with those such
reviews being distributed on this list. I enjoy reading the Mike & Ike
reviews because they are funny. I think it is questionable whether
non-professional reviews should be distributed - although they are usually
positive, which is great for the theatre to which they refer, we don't know
anything about the people sending the message, so we don't really know if
we
can trust their opinions or not. I think what you have been doing in the
past is fine. That is my vote. Thanks again for doing this list - it is
great!
Anonymous
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-----------------
Great question. I would vote "NO." You said to me just last week how
much the subscriber list has grown. The list of postings has obviously
grown, too. The reviews and opinions clutter up the list that much more.
To be honest, I am less likely to spend time reading ANY postings when I
have 15 or more on a given day. I just start deleting. I would love to see
the list reduced to audition and performance notices only.
I mentioned I thought that the postings should be left to auditions and
performances only. Let me expand upon that a bit to say that I think there
are definitely some exceptions, a good example being the notice you put in
for a dedication to Steve Sterlekar. News postings that affect the theatre
community as a whole I feel are appropriate and could be left to your
discretion as moderator.
Thanks,
Patrick Jansen
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---------
Yes, I would agree that you have a bit of a problem here. All I know is
that your newsletter is terrific, a great asset to the theatre
community...and it has changed over the last month or two because people
are what?...using it for the wrong reasons? and/or using it like email, to
begin a dialogue. Clutter, I guess. The reviews don't bother me because at
least they shed light on where and when shows are happening. The personal
notices are irritating. The length of some notices is irritating. they go
on forever just pumping their action. But I don't know how you would
control all of this and I'm not sure you should try. It is your deal so I
suppose you could try to make any kind of restrictions that you wish. In
fact, here's an idea...go back into your mind when you began this
idea. What were your initial dreams and ambitions for the site? Is it
becoming something you don't like? Answer those questions and act upon them
as you see fit. If I had to vote I guess I would vote "No" reviews and
personal stuff doesn't bother me (even though the personal stuff
does.) Take care. Congrats on Saturday Night.
William F. Hoffman
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----------------
Yes, keep the reviews. As you said, this list is a supportive environment
for the acting community, and reviews of any kind provide publicity for
the shows they concern. And as we all know, there is really no such thing as
bad publicity. Also, I feel that the sharing of personal opinions is more
than appropriate for the list. Thank you for putting it to a vote.
Sincerely,
Jamie Hoffman
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------------------
I would say, Fred, that whether or not reviews
are appropriate depends on what you would define as being
the purpose of the list. If it's a discussion list, then reviews
are fine. If it's a general theatre interest list, then reviews are
fine.
If it's a sort of billboard for theatre productions and theatre
related products and services, which is how it's used most of the
time, then reviews are not within the scope of that. I
don't care if reviews are included, as long as they are not negative
towards a show I'm involved with -- I can provoke enough negative
feedback on my own.
Mike Sepesy
_http://m.d.sep.home.att.net/_ (http://m.d.sep.home.att.net/)
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---------------------------
I've got to tell you that I am in favor of continuing your practice of
allowing reviews (any kind) to be sent on the list. People should be entitled
to their opinions. I feel that if you don't care for what the person is
saying...then don't read it. That's what the "delete button" is for. :)
Jack Herman, Founder-President
Tree City Players
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----------------------------
I enjoy reading them all. People have the all-American right to
exercise the delete key.
On the other hand, Fred, it's your list. If the headaches outweigh
the benefits for you, let somebody else start the "NEOPerforming Arts
Reviews, Opinions, Kvetches, and Random Noodlings" list. You're doing
a boatload of work to keep this afloat, so in my opinion, it's not even
about
how people "vote". Do what you like.
- Linda Eisenstein,, _www.lindaeisenstein.com_
(http://www.lindaeisenstein.com/)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
------------
ABSOLUTELY YES !!
If people don't like it, they can delete it. That is why the
computer Gods put that little key that says "del" on it
right on the right hand side of your keyboard. It comes
in very handy......P.S. Sorry to hear this issue is causing
you agita....it should be a no-brainer.
Anonymous
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-----------------
I think as the keeper of the service, you should decide. Though I
also believe one can decide not to read reviews or opinions if they
bother them. And really what's wrong with extending the scope of
anything. Grow.
YES
Eric Johnson
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-----------------
I am sending a definitive YES answer to your question.
Artists (of any medium), being that our work is of a subjective nature,
leave themselves open to the subjective interpretations and opinions of anyone
else participating in our craft. That includes viewers, sellers, buyers,
fellow artists, critics, and the general public - in short, anyone. All
artists know the pain of criticism against what they hold dear, and dedicate
themselves to achieving. We spend our entire lives searching for our own
truth, and find bits along the way that we try to share with others, only to
be laughed at, rejected, scoffed at, dismissed, etc., etc., etc. IT GOES
WITH THE TERRITORY. If you can't handle that, then art (in any form) is
not for you.
Freedom of speech is disappearing everywhere today - the "mob" of public
opinion influences everything to such a degree that even in the arts,
decisions are geared towards what is "palatable" and "sellable" for the masses.
Like when theaters do shows that have little artistic merit, but have huge
box office grosses (do the two go hand in hand?). And I'm not just talking
about the *movie* theaters.
Although I have not contributed much to this forum (not having played
organizational roles in the theater yet), I have to say that if this forum is
turned into a "touchy-feely" version of its former self that is toned down
to pacify those who have neither the stomach or courage to pursue their
artistic inclinations, then I'm not sure I will still subscribe.
Having said all that, I *do* appreciate the time and work that is put into
this list, helping those of us in the area that want to pursue theater.
It is a huge help.
Sincerely,
Craig Thompson
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---------
Maybe people have forgotten that you maintain this massive list free of
charge to us, and that angry letters are not a kind way to treat someone who
is giving us a gift for free. "yes" - personal reviews and opinions of
each other's work should be allowed on a list of this type, with at least two
ground rules in place:
1) All reviews should be written in a spirit of camaraderie and
constructive comments. Several of the reviews posted have motivated me to see the
shows, if for no other reason than to compare reactions.
2) All angry letters should be directed towards the person responsible for
the objectionable material. If someone disagrees with Jeff or Roy's
opinions, they should have the guts to duke it out with Jeff or Roy. You don't
deserve to be dragged into it. To make you play "mommy" because someone got
their feelings hurt is unfair to you and an act of cowardice on their part.
Thanks for the service!! It is greatly appreciated!!!
JT Buck
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-----------------
I like the words 'review' or 'personal opinion' or some other obvious
marker in the subject - that way if I'm not interested I can just delete
and not read.
As usual, thank you for all you do,
~ Rachel Madorsky
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------------
OF COURSE keep the reviews going. YES, YEs, Yes!.
Free speech aside, it is good to hear another opinion. People who are
unwilling to hear a, perhaps, differing opinion wear the proverbial
blinders
and can only see from their point of view. These are also the kind of
people that espouse, "Don't confuse me with facts, my mind is already made
up." There is no growth for these people. While I usually disagree with
reviews, I will always -- ALWAYS -- want to read them.
Ron Spinelli
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------
YES. As long as the person sending it in identifies themselves. Debate
and criticism are essential parts of the arts. Anyone who can't handle a
negative review (wherever it happens to be) probably should get out of
theatre. and of course, no one has to read a review if they don't want to. I
personally usually delete them. but if some want to post them and others
read them, they should be allowed. Alex J Nine.
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
----------------------
Hi, Fred - I vote NO....
...mostly because I always breeze right past the Mike and Ike stuff
impatiently and just scan the reviews for familiar names. I think these
things are definitely post-worthy, but perhaps a separate list is the
solution.
I also think that it will be impossible to set any kind of guideline as to
what would be accepted for posting, once the forum is opened wide to
reviews
and personal opinions. The selection/editing process is no longer
arbitrary
and it's a can of worms that will land directly in your lap, I'm afraid.
You've done a marvelous job
administering this list, but I don't think this will make your job easier
in
ANY way. It's a headache you just don't need or deserve.
Anonymous
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-------------
We should not be so frail, that a negative review not be posted. BUT
certainly we should take care to insure the negativity isn't being spread by
persons not directly affected. (Some may be happy for another
theatre/performers poor review.) Perhaps we should find message boards for these
kinds of things..Or a chat room with designated times for people in the arts to
opening discuss our "issues"(greater Cleveland),whatever they may be.
The general advertisements are OK and easy to delete. I would like to take
this time to thank you for pulling this information together for the
theater community...:-)
Anonymous
------------------------------------------------------------------------
My opinion is that they should not be included in the everyday content of
the list. Some of them are silly and take time from information theater
people need and want. However, for those who want to read them perhaps
there can be an e-mail address or some way they can be accessed. That way the
integrity of the main list is kept intact but people can take a "detour" to
read the various opinions and reviews.
Anonymous
------------------------------------------------------
If we as artists are not strong enough to face or deal with a valid
opinion from another artist, or open ourselves to another viewpoint differing
from our own, how could we possibly truly call ourselves artists? This
difference of opinion and melting pot of thoughts and views is what all of art is
based upon. If we cannot accept a view that does not hold true with our
own, no matter how much we may personally fear it, then perhaps we are in
the wrong field.
-Brian Bowers
-------------------------------------------------------
I think that those people who don't like the reviews - don't have to read
them. It is very informative and interesting to me to read reviews and
opinions that I don't have time to look up for myself - a negative comment, or
constructive criticism, is not necessarily unsupportive. We get this
Email so that we can stay informed with what it going on, and if there is
something negative to be said, that keeps us informed too. I frankly wish that
there were more reviews.
I am really amazed that people find the time to send angry Emails - if
they don't like it, delete it and go do something else.
Anonymous
-------------------------------------------------------
First, I would like to say thank you for tending to this list serve, it
is rather impressive. I am new to the list serve (Chuck Fink and Noah
Budin told me about it). I graduated from KSU with a BA in theatre some
time ago, and have been working full time in the corporate world - but I
am hoping to become more involved in theatre.
Anyway - my vote is YES - I'm a "card carrying member" of the ACLU. I
believe that freedom of speech and personal expression is the paramount
right in a free and democratic society. This is a freedom that is
precarious indeed, and the arts have always been threatened by it
(Maplethorpe for example) and as a "torch bearer" of sorts, I owe it to
those around me to hear them out - even if I am adamantly opposed to
what they are saying.
Those are my two cents. Again, thanks so much for being the "keeper of
the list" as it were!
Anastasia Birosh
Cleveland Heights
-------------------------------------------------------
I vote to exclude from the list those that fall into the category of
personal opinion and continuing with those that are professional reviews,
published or republished. There are public forums out there for those who
wish to express their personal opinions.
Hang in there... this online controversy will at some point pass...
leaving you ready for the next one! Your work is appreciated by this subscriber.
All the Best,
Steve FitzGerald
Lakewood Buzz founder
---------------------------------------------------------
absolutely - yes. reviews are an integral part of our business -positive
or negative. Anyone who wants all theater news to be positive is in the
wrong business.
f. mularo
---------------------------------------------------------
yes,
reviews and other comments should be allowed to be
posted on this list,
in a business such as this, we are constantly
subjected to criticism of all kinds, whether it be a
professional review or a parody all in fun.
actors need to learn to laugh at their own
performance, if they cant, are they not enjoying their
own profession?
Anonymous
----------------------------------------------------------
I vote yes. You've got to take the good with the bad. In this business
we stick our collective necks out (a lot), so you've got to expect that
heads will roll once in a while. We can take it. We're a strong bunch.
Janet Shank
Fine Arts Association Theatre Dept. Chair
----------------------------------------------------------
I agree that personal opinions are a waste of
space and a irritation on this format. That's what
chat rooms are for. I did appreciate the information
from aftra about bogus agencies, though. I also do not
like the posting of reviews. There are so many shows,
and so much to look at, it's just a little overkill.
If one is interested in reviews, one can read the
paper.
Anonymous
------------------------------------------------------------
Overall, yes, I appreciate personal reviews. I don't feel professional
reviews have the end-all opinion. I always ask friends for an opinion of
something they have seen. But I do feel the reviews on your service should
contain the subject line: Personal Review: (Insert name of show), so we know
in advance what it is.
On the other hand, my e-mail is becoming very clogged. I find I'm
deleting more and more NEohioPAL e-mails without opening them.When I write e-mail
announcements to be sent, I appreciate the huge audience that subscribes to
your service. But, as the recipient, I often feel overwhelmed by the
volume of e-mails.
I would prefer you limit the service in other ways. Rather than omitting
personal reviews, I'd rather you omit, for example, high school shows,
non-theatre musical events and other things that aren't purely theatre.
Anonymous
-----------------------------------------------------------
My belief is that the PAL listing is a service designed to provide
relevant information to the community interested in the arts. It should serve as a
central address to enable those on the list to easily retrieve information
they deem relevant.
As long as the "Subject" information is clear, I see no reason why
submisssions should be edited. This includes the juxtaposition of reviews by
theatres, as well as individual responses to publicly generated reviews and
comments by editorial writers in the local papers.
Tact and good sense would seem to be the measures by which PAL subscribers
may determine whether they choose to read, or delete, submissions that are
posted.
Sincerely,
Jeff Grover
-------------------------------------------------------------
YES.
I fully support the posting and/or exchange of opinions within the
framework
of the NEohioPAL service and appreciate the opportunity to see reviews and
opinions whether I agree with them or not (& I certainly have had ample
opportunity to be on both 'sides').
Free speech is a treasured freedom and I believe we should all be
supportive
of it while realizing that reviews and opinions are "just that" and should
cut you a little slack in serving as the conduit...
Thanks very much.
All the best,
Jim McCormack
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-----------------
As much as I dislike negativity concerning community theater, the issue of
freedom of speech is of more concern. Unfortunately if you do not pass
stuff like that along, you could be open to a lawsuit or would have to shut
the service off.
I usually delete anything that I do not like anyway which the other
readers can do. If you get unfavorable mail, you should return it to the sender
to advise to complain ti the source.
I do suggest that if there was something that you or your staff saw was
objectionable and you felt that something need to be addressed, you still
have the option of returning it to the author for reread it and give him the
opportunity to revise or withdraw it before passing on to us. I know that
I would seriously reread something that was returned to me before
reapproving for mass distribution.
Bob Fadeley
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--------------
I certainly don't mind reviews. I suggest that if readers don't wish to
read reviews, for them to take note of the subject header, which usually
implies that the following message is a review. Then delete it.
For those posting reviews, you might request that they put the word
"Review" in the subject line.
Cheers, Cat Kenney
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----------------
Once again I can't "THANK YOU" enough for helping me out so much with this
helpful list.I feel that personal opinions and reviews should be
allowed........Thanks for asking!
Have a great day,
Mark A. Mazzocco
PS: if you ever receive any critism of something I acted in, then delete
it...just kidding.
--------------------------------------------------------------------
In answer to you inquiry, I do not feel that a person's personal opinions
or reviews should be included. I try to see everything I can, theaterwise,
and don't feel someone else's opinion, however well meaning, will
influence me, one way or the other. Above and beyond all that, I don't have time
to read the stuff that I'm supposed to, let alone the rest of it. So,
since you asked....
Anonymous
--------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, however, I don't like to get e-mails that give me a long list of
all the shows that a person's child is in (excluding Betsy Hogg's
mom-Broadway is a pretty big deal) If I wanna know I will call a parent
personally.
Reviews and critics are part of theatre. Some people hate criticism all
together and think "how dare they say something bad about our show or my
performance" Theatre is an art form. It evolves, has shape, and should
entice discussion and thought. Why do we do theatre if it doesn't cause
someone to be motivated or feel a certain emotion or cause change?
Perhaps there could be an on-line theatre forum created for Cleveland to
discuss art that is going on around us.
Anonymous
-------------------------------------------------------------------
Yes, reviews and opinions should be allowed because it's all part of
theatre. Everyone has an opinion, positive or negative, and should be able
to share that with others they think can appreciate it. If some people on
the list don't want to read reviews or anything they fear might be
negative,
they should skip those posts when reading the list. Personally, I've used
the reviews on the list which don't appear in my local papers to decide if
a
show is worth seeing or not.
Thanks for putting it up to a vote.
Linda
-----------------------------------------------------------------
--
Fred Sternfeld
_http://www.fredsternfeld.com_ (http://www.fredsternfeld.com/)
216-360-0708-home
216-496-6087-cell
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