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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>I couldn’t seem to see the first post that started this, other than it just said un-paid indie film so I missed the “pretentious, insulting” etc. so keep that in mind please.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But…</FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>As someone who’s with a local agency and it seems (from what I’ve heard) to book work slightly more than the average and also does lots more basically un-paid indie work around here, my opinion on this matter is layered and contextual.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>It is NOT black and white but basically comes down to contextual “presentation” method – i.e.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>who’s putting on the film, for what (you could call this a “media plan” as well, and why and then HOW they treat the talent involved. </FONT></P>
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<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3>I’ve lived here slightly over two years and have had many wonderful, most fulfilling of my life experiences, and very few not so great ones with local film-makers.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I’ve been treated like near royalty by several Virginia Marti College of Art and Design students who were so touched I’d spend my time doing their film for free (students have no $, you know this) that the creative collaboration was completely worth the lack of $ and time spent on it, and have had the same experiences with several film-makers a bit past the average college age who were trying to do something creative<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>with their lives on the side.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Never once have I ever felt, abused, dis-respected or under-appreciated by ANY local film-makers I’ve worked with who couldn’t pay-<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>they’ve given me nothing but the utmost, respect, love, and appreciation.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3>Moving on, let’s remember that 1.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This is only a business that makes money and warrants paying you money when there’s money to be made in some way back. <SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>2.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If there’s no money to be made then someone else is going to pay out of somebody’s pocket (their own, a diff producer) for no ROI and thus logically creates a disincentive to even bother creating the film in the first place or to do so on the scale wherein funds become necessary.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>These are mere logical facts.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If you’re not prepared to accept that then your problem is one of a more idealistic nature and for that I would say seek counseling for inflated super-ego issues.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>…so from here and getting back to a film’s “presentation”, it is your decision/commitment to make ahead of time (and then responsibly stick to until after production is done- luckily though, you can change your mind before each new project) as to whether you agree in principle with acting for free or not and whether that belief is flexible to context or not.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Questions worth considering in this pursuit of your true feelings on the subject look like: </FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3>If I decide I don’t believe in acting for free ever, at what point did I earn this right? That all my acting is so professional that in doing any of it at all,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I must be paid?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If I’ve hit this mark- why am I not in actual feature films?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3>What if the director is a 21 year film student- should someone who clearly makes less than I do annually need to pay me out of their own pocket or have their parents pay me so I can appear in their student film?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>With the above, what if I really like the story and just think it would be great to do?</FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Should I separate amateur from professional experiences and make decisions accordingly?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3>Do I need to accept myself that if I am not getting enough paid work through my agency or whomever that I, am in fact, NOT a professional full-time actor by sheer economic law?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3>If that’s the case, perhaps I should either see what a job pays and if it doesn’t ignore it instead of complaining about what others may be comfortable with?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>If I have a “real job” and so does the director/producer of this film and this director/producer of this film makes no bones about admitting he’s got no $,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>should I expect money out of his/her pocket just because they want to make a film and I want to act in a film?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Should I maybe consider this more of a collaboration?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Why does investing in the equipment to make a film mean they have to be the ones who have to pay just because I think I’m an actor (those with SAG or AFTRA cards can confirm that yes, they are actors, not just folks who say they like to act)?</FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>Finally, if there’s no Hollywood style producer behind a film and very little budget, should I as an “actor” who is obviously not a full-time actor in LA, either judge the local director for not having figured out the key to getting budget or being successful in the same way that I have thus far failed to reach the level of success in being a full-time paid actor? Maybe I need to realize that in some cases, I’m technically and de facto on the same professional level as the local director/film-maker who can’t pay me. If I were above that, I probably wouldn’t be acting in Cleveland at all currently…</FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>If I decide that I/no one should ever act for free because it devalues the concept of acting-am I OK with effectively discouraging kids/people from getting into film-making by grabbing cameras and finding people interested in acting to do the acting for the film they want to learn to make/try to make?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Am I ok with that de facto negative reinforcement as a so-called “artist”?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>(and If I only am into acting for $, am I an artist at all and does that matter to me?)</FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office" /><o:p><FONT size=3 face=Calibri> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>Now for me, the answers to some of these questions/my thoughts on acting around here are as such/ look like this- </FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri></FONT> </P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpFirst><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"><FONT size=3>·</FONT><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3>If you’re a money-making company or ad agency and you’re going to use my likeness/work to sell something and make $, you HAVE to pay me and pay me well.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Sorry Goodyear or anyone else, I’d never represent you for free. This stuff’s easy though- agency calls, you read,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>they cast you, you ask how much it pays.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>They tell you and if you like it, you accept.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><o:p><FONT size=3 face=Calibri> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"><FONT size=3>·</FONT><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3>If you pay me and pay me well, you can tell me what to do, when we’re doing it, etc. with-in reason and I’ll shut up and follow direction if I agreed to the work to begin with (my agency does a good job of telling you mostly everything up front so you’re agreeing to something or not).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><o:p><FONT size=3 face=Calibri> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"><FONT size=3>·</FONT><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3>If I really like your story and realize that no one’s knocking down my door to play really awesome roles for lots of money and that even IF I moved to LA I’d not likely just have them handed to me (and no less not anytime soon) – I’ll gladly do it for free so long as you’re nice and respectful to me, it films on weekends (as I will take off work for paid gigs but sorry, not for free), and you feed me.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><o:p><FONT size=3 face=Calibri> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"><FONT size=3>·</FONT><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT face=Calibri><FONT size=3>If you are younger than me or make less money annually than me, would be paying me out of your own pocket, have little likelihood of making any $ back from it* and all of the above is accurate, I have a hard time taking your money, especially if you’re a student,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>or you’re an indie film-maker just trying to create something and you have kids, etc.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Really,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>how could I take a 20 year’s old money that I know from being a 20 year old some time ago was made waiting tables when I have my own source of income?<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Really, that would just be embarrassing.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><o:p><FONT size=3 face=Calibri> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><o:p><FONT size=3 face=Calibri> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>*really, the only way you can make $ from a film is distribution or winning awards at film-festivals.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Well the likelihood to get either of those without making a film with a budget to begin with is slim so it’s safe to say if they aren’t paying you,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>they’re not going to profit from you’re work either.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>This really leads me to say the next thing-</FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><o:p><FONT size=3 face=Calibri> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="TEXT-INDENT: -0.25in; MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in; mso-list: l0 level1 lfo1" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><SPAN style="FONT-FAMILY: Symbol; mso-fareast-font-family: Symbol; mso-bidi-font-family: Symbol"><SPAN style="mso-list: Ignore"><FONT size=3>·</FONT><SPAN style="FONT: 7pt 'Times New Roman'"> </SPAN></SPAN></SPAN><FONT size=3><FONT face=Calibri>I am not deluded and I believe in economic laws-<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>by virtue of the fact that I have NOT moved to LA to pursue being a full-time always-paid professional actor (because let’s face it, the industry dictates where you can be a full time actor and you either play along or don’t.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>believe me, LA isn’t missing anyone reticent to go there- there’s ALREADY a lot more talent than jobs…)<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I don’t see how I can think of myself as so much above a local film-maker that they need to pay me for my time and skill when they may well not even be paying themselves for their own time/have invested their own $ into equipment/are taking their own time away from their families so I can be in a film at all*.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Now there’s a difference between a true production company and a local film-maker, though many film-makers have little company names,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>but let’s face it,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>the average local film-maker who’s going to ask you to act for free is going to invest themselves just as much if not moreso than you as an actor to get their film made-<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I’ve seen it several times over.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 0pt 0.5in" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpMiddle><o:p><FONT size=3 face=Calibri> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt 0.5in" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpLast><FONT size=3><FONT face=Calibri>*fact, life is opportunity costs and derived demand- if no one’s begging you to act in their film for money, at that moment, you are not worth paying (in arguing opportunity costs- those would be for what NON acting related activities you’d be doing like golfing, etc.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>and thus, still not warrant payment).<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If you have options, you have earned the right to pick the best option.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Or, you can not act at all.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt 0.5in" class=MsoListParagraphCxSpLast><FONT size=3><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT face=Calibri>In conclusion/to repeat: I guess I’m saying pick your projects/battles and if you refuse to work for free, accept you will have a boring life as an actor in Cleveland where most paid work is commercial/industrial or move.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If you like the idea of a film and are offered the role,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>do it.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>If you’re busy with other stuff or don’t love it,<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>don’t accept the role.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>But please don’t blame a local film-maker for not having figured out the key to having the $ to pay you when you yourself most likely haven’t figured out how to get yourself paid all the time/full time either.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I’ve lived here slightly over two years and have had many wonderful, most fulfilling of my life experiences, and very few not so great ones.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>I’ve been treated like near royalty by several Virginia Marti College of Art and Design students who were so touched I’d spend my time doing their film for free (students have no $, you know this) that the creative collaboration was completely worth the lack of $ and time spent on it, and have had the same experiences with several film-makers a bit past the average college age who were trying to do something creative with their lives on the side.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>Never once have I ever felt, abused, dis-respected or under-appreciated by ANY local film-makers I’ve worked with who couldn’t pay-<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN>they’ve given me nothing but the utmost, respect, love, and appreciation.<SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"> </SPAN></FONT></FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3><FONT face=Calibri><SPAN style="mso-spacerun: yes"></SPAN></FONT></FONT> </P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>Now if a Hollywood film or some company comes here forget all that, I’m getting PAID!</FONT></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><o:p><FONT size=3 face=Calibri> </FONT></o:p></P>
<P style="MARGIN: 0in 0in 10pt" class=MsoNormal><FONT size=3 face=Calibri>Mike Goulis</FONT></P>
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To: donnam.williams@hotmail.com<BR>Date: Tue, 8 Dec 2009 15:03:19 -0500<BR>From: actorloganfry@aol.com<BR>CC: neohiopal@listserve.com<BR>Subject: Re: [NEohioPAL] Indy Feature Film Auditions<BR><BR><FONT color=black size=2 face=arial>
<DIV style="FONT-FAMILY: arial; COLOR: black; FONT-SIZE: 10pt">
<DIV id=ecxAOLMsgPart_2_0b398ccd-aafa-4ce7-802b-cf820848851c><FONT color=black size=2 face=arial><FONT size=2><FONT face="Arial, Helvetica, sans-serif">I'm probably the wrong person to say anything, since I've never had an acting class and never went to film school; but I have been in films with Kevin Bacon, Will Smith, Danny and Chris Masterson, Bijou Phillips, George Segal and Tobey Maguire. Did I sit down with them for a beer after a tough day's shoot? No. Was I on the same set? Well, yes (except Maguire, of course--we got Spider-Man, not Peter Parker). <BR><BR>Most of those projects involved travel to NYC, CT and NJ and the pay was up to about $100.00 a day. Wow! What a deal! Background. Trees that move. Standing under the Brooklyn Bridge at 3:00 AM in 14 degree weather in January. $100.00 or so. I didn't break even on any of them, except <I>Spider-Man 3.</I> So what? <BR><BR>Cleveland has a small film industry; but if it weren't for directors and actors willing to work for free, Cleveland wouldn't have a film industry at all. Okay, there are some commercial houses out there, and they do pay their actors (but not always). I'm talking about movies--film. <BR><BR>If we really want a film industry here, we need to develop skills. Cast, crew--skills. Will we get another <I>Spider-Man 3?</I> No dream of mine. Another <I>Welcome to Collinwood</I> or <I>American Splendor?</I> That would be sweet. And maybe another one of our own aspiring directors will break out again some day. You need to start somewhere. <BR><BR>I'm I a hobbyist? Who cares? If I can help make something possible for some director out there who wants to work with me and other amateurs, that's good enough for me. We can actually make it happen--instead of whining about the sad state of the film industry in Cleveland. <BR><BR>So if you don't like the concept--don't audition. I probably won't get the role even if I do. I'll still be there. <BR><BR>Logan Fry<BR>Last role: aged zombie in "Death of the Dead"<BR>My line: "Help me - Help me - The bastards ate my wife"<BR>Pay: craft table for lunch<BR><BR></FONT></FONT></FONT></DIV></DIV></FONT> </body>
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